{ Questioners } Re: { Questioners } RE: { Questioners } A question

[Pete Briquette]

Are we not to obey the commands of Jesus Christ Himself without fail?

Did Jesus Christ Himself forbid under _all circumstances_ our delivery of
death to any person?

Pete.

Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: { Questioners } RE: { Questioners } A
question
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:53:08 -0500

Jonathan,
What about a situation in which two persons with machine guns go into

and

open fire in a school full of children, killing many and the only way to
prevent all the children from being slaughtered is for police/army to
deliver death to the bloodthirsty persons that have the machine guns.

Indeed. What about the situation every day in first-century Palestine, in
which the Romans and the Herodians were regularly killing men, women, and
children, the situation in which men were trying to buy their freedom using
the deaths of themselves, their friends, and their enemies the Romans?

Are you saying the commands and teachings of God to people today forbids
under all circumstances our delivery of death to any person?

Are we not to obey the commands of Jesus Christ Himself without fail?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Post by Pete Briquette

Are we not to obey the commands of Jesus Christ Himself without fail?

Did Jesus Christ Himself forbid under _all circumstances_ our delivery of
death to any person?
Pete.

I would like to suggest that any delivery of death to any person is a violation of several commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Tom Sathre]

Jonathan,

This is Tom Sathre. How do you handle verses such as 1 Cor. 5:5 or Numbers
16?

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 8/12/2004 2:49:12 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: { Questioners } Re: { Questioners }

RE: { Questioners } A question

Post by Pete Briquette

Are we not to obey the commands of Jesus Christ Himself without fail?

Did Jesus Christ Himself forbid under _all circumstances_ our delivery

of

Post by Pete Briquette
death to any person?
Pete.

I would like to suggest that any delivery of death to any person is a

violation of several commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
I would like to suggest that any delivery of death to any person is a
violation of several commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre. How do you handle verses such as 1 Cor. 5:5

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 For as being absent in body, but being present in spirit, I have already judged the one who has worked out this thing, as if I were present: (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together with my spirit also, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I remember that "the flesh" of a person is a term used by Paul to refer to the 'old man', the unregenerate part of our nonphysical selves, which we in Christ must kill over time as part of our progress towards the Godliness called sanctification.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
or Numbers 16?
Tom.

In the sixteenth chapter of Numbers, we have an instance where God decided to kill quite a few people. God still kills people; one holy witness is in the first few chapters of the Book of the Revelation. But God has never abridged His commandments given through the Son, in which we are commanded to love our neighbors and our enemies without fail.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[m***@juno.com]

You have asked this same question in the past, though maybe in different
wording. And once again the answer has to speak to the difference between
those who follow Yah and the secular. And what are our responsibilities
regarding the secular government while still walking in and being
faithful to the faith.

As I posted before when addressing this question, I do not know anymore
if I would 'take up arms' against an intruder upon my family, friends,
assembly, community, or nation. I believe that can only be answered where
the rubber meets the road, where our TRUE hearts are finally revealed in
each of us.

So, in effect, I could give a BOLD religiously correct answer I suppose
which would seem very spiritual and enlightened. But the truth of that
answer would be nothing but words, and most likely just 'wind' in the
end......

We continue to 'strain at a gnat and swallow camels' don't we? What are
the deep questions and answers which confront the issues of just who we
are, Who we follow, what we do and are to do?

At present, we who call ourselves the church, look like anything BUT what
the 'church' is called to and/or was when the letter of Acts (of the
Emissaries) was written. Once again, we divide and squabble over
traditions of man more than the truth of the Word just as our brother
Judah was doing when Y'shua came the first time to correct this in His
people.

And are we taking care of those 'greater things' such as mercy, love,
compassion draws us to. To feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.....?
And THIS out of self-lessness? Or is it that even in this there are
selfish motives and reasons for even seeking to do these things?

Is it because of His promises? Or is it because of who we are now? I
consider these more important decisions for the body today. Not will I go
to serve in the nations armed services or have to bear arms against any.
THESE have to be addressed by each individual according to what they
believe the Ruach HaQodesh is leading them to do. And these must be
convinced fully of this by convictions only they are accountable and
responsible to.

Don't get me wrong. I do not belittle your questions on this. But I just
really do not see to what point this really effects any in the present
needs of the building up of the body of Messiah.

I really believe if we get the 'above' (kingdom works) in proper order,
these other 'things' will tend to fall in proper place and perspective
for the body as a whole. And that without the 'above' we go on a
meaningless journey of words and wind and uplifting of self.

shalom
laz


On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:48:55 -0500 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by Pete Briquette

Post by Pete Briquette

Are we not to obey the commands of Jesus Christ Himself without

fail?

Post by Pete Briquette
Did Jesus Christ Himself forbid under _all circumstances_ our

delivery of

Post by Pete Briquette
death to any person?
Pete.

I would like to suggest that any delivery of death to any person is
a violation of several commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ
Himself.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

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[m***@juno.com]

Below:

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:31:23 -0500 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
I would like to suggest that any delivery of death to any person is

a

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
violation of several commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ

Himself.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre. How do you handle verses such as 1 Cor. 5:5

1 Corinthians 5:3-5 For as being absent in body, but being present
in spirit, I have already judged the one who has worked out this
thing, as if I were present: (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ, you being gathered together with my spirit also, with the
power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) to deliver such a one to Satan
for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the
day of the Lord Jesus.
I remember that "the flesh" of a person is a term used by Paul to
refer to the 'old man', the unregenerate part of our nonphysical
selves, which we in Christ must kill over time as part of our
progress towards the Godliness called sanctification.

This is absolutely what Paul is addressing here. You are right, Paul was
not speaking of putting one to death or such at all.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
or Numbers 16?
Tom.

In the sixteenth chapter of Numbers, we have an instance where God
decided to kill quite a few people. God still kills people; one
holy witness is in the first few chapters of the Book of the
Revelation. But God has never abridged His commandments given
through the Son, in which we are commanded to love our neighbors and
our enemies without fail.

There is an general mis-understanding among many which says that love
equals no punishment or judgment. But this understanding totally denies
Elohim and His nature completely. For He not only loves and gives mercy
and grace, but He is also just.

Another misconception is that love prevents one from taking a life. This
denies the true nature of this love. Many have killed one they love,
grieving over the situation and necessity which brought things to this
conclusion. As love is not just emotion, indeed emotion in connection
with love is but the icing on the cake so to speak. Else every time we
punished our children for wrong doing (for their own good and safety) or
when we got angry with our mate or children, or got in an heated argument
with a loved one, we would be out of love.
This is why so many get divorced and why so many families fall apart,
etc... Because love has been re-defined as an unreal emotional issue. An
Cinderella type fantasy thing.
Love is much more than emotion, it is an commitment and choice first of
all. A state of being, in which only the real (only by the Ruach
HaQodesh) is found. This very real love is indeed capable of justice,
whatever form it may take.

IF my neighbor attacks one of his children in front of me with a knife, I
do not have to 'fall out of love' to protect that child. Or if he has
come to rape and murder my family, I do not have to fall out of love to
defend in whatever way is necessary.

It is late, I am rambling, forgive me. Hope I am understood...

shalom
laz

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

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[Jonathan E. Brickman]

If my neighbor attacks one of his children in front of me with a knife, I
do not have to 'fall out of love' to protect that child. Or if he has
come to rape and murder my family, I do not have to fall out of love to
defend in whatever way is necessary.
It is late, I am rambling, forgive me. Hope I am understood...
shalom
laz

I understand your point of view. However, I will take the point of view of God, who speaks about a man named Job as being perfect in all his behaviors. One of the behaviors of Job was rather specific: when God knowingly and deliberately permitted Satan to send devil-men to kill all of Job's sons and servants (excepting one or two servants), Job did not round up all of his neighbors and friends and have a war. I suggest that this perfection is true perfection in behavior, which we are all asked by the Lord to accept.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[m***@juno.com]

Yes, Job was given time to seek his heart in the matter. He chose to fall
down on his face and say,' YHWH gives, YHWH takes away, Blessed be the
name of YHWH'.

He was not witness to this himself, or he most likely would have done all
he could to protect his family and everything. Just as I was speaking to.


I cannot say if I would be as Job as this has not happened to me in this
particular way yet. But in a close circumstance I DID reach out to kill
the guy, and with him being just 2 or so feet away, I COULD NOT REACH
HIM! I believe Elohim intervened that day, for him and for me. Now I have
forgiven him and we fellowship every now and then.

It is noble and vurtuous to seek Elohim's ways Jon. It is also same to
desire to walk accordingly. But as I said, we do not know until the
rubber meets the road what each will do. So I PRAISE Him for grace when
we do not quite meet up to His standard or Torah.

I accept this as YHWH's standard BTW. But I know that in my flesh I am
unable to meet that standard, but through Messiah Y'shua alone.

shaloom
laz



On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 18:06:44 -0500 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by m***@juno.com

If my neighbor attacks one of his children in front of me with a

knife, I

do not have to 'fall out of love' to protect that child. Or if he

has

come to rape and murder my family, I do not have to fall out of

love to

defend in whatever way is necessary.
It is late, I am rambling, forgive me. Hope I am understood...
shalom
laz

I understand your point of view. However, I will take the point of
view of God, who speaks about a man named Job as being perfect in
when God knowingly and deliberately permitted Satan to send
devil-men to kill all of Job's sons and servants (excepting one or
two servants), Job did not round up all of his neighbors and friends
and have a war. I suggest that this perfection is true perfection
in behavior, which we are all asked by the Lord to accept.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

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[Tom Sathre]

Jonathan,

This is Tom Sathre.

I'm impressed: So what you're writing is that He killed "quite a few
people" but not us, right?

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 8/15/2004 3:31:19 PM
Subject: Re[2]: { Questioners } A question

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
I would like to suggest that any delivery of death to any person is a
violation of several commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

.
.
.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
or Numbers 16?
Tom.

In the sixteenth chapter of Numbers, we have an instance where God

decided to kill quite a few people. God still kills people; one holy
witness is in the first few chapters of the Book of the Revelation. But
God has never abridged His commandments given through the Son, in which we
are commanded to love our neighbors and our enemies without fail.

--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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