Recent dead in war

[Jonathan E. Brickman]

It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public board of some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war in Afghanistan and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that along with these names should be listed at least those dead of the Christian churches who were drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of Iraq and others in similar power-positions.

What would you do?

--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Tom Sathre]

Jonathan,

This is Tom Sathre.

This suggestion "smells" like a political sally. Since you're in a church
in the US, reality says you are subject to the US Internal Revenue Service
rules, like it or not. As to what I would do, I would get some good advice,
such as about taxes if my church does X or Y or Z. Perhaps you have a
nearby, trusted friend who could help you out.

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 9/26/2004 3:14:48 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public board of

some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war in Afghanistan
and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that along with these names
should be listed at least those dead of the Christian churches who were
drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of Iraq and others in similar
power-positions.

What would you do?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links

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[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Post by Tom Sathre

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public board of
some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war in Afghanistan
and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that along with these names
should be listed at least those dead of the Christian churches who were
drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of Iraq and others in similar
power-positions.
What would you do?

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre.
This suggestion "smells" like a political sally.

No, it is not a political sally. I do not engage in political sallies.

Post by Tom Sathre
Since you're in a church
in the US, reality says you are subject to the US Internal Revenue Service
rules, like it or not. As to what I would do, I would get some good advice,
such as about taxes if my church does X or Y or Z. Perhaps you have a
nearby, trusted friend who could help you out.
Tom.

I am not concerned with that. I am concerned only as to what we should do vis a vis the will of God. If what we should do in terms of the will of God requires a different tax situation, that will be done; however, my concern is what we should do vis a vis the will of God.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[m***@juno.com]

'Let the dead bury the dead'............?

laz



On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:14:49 -0500 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public
board of some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war
in Afghanistan and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that
along with these names should be listed at least those dead of the
Christian churches who were drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of
Iraq and others in similar power-positions.
What would you do?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

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[m***@juno.com]

This suggestion is indeed good for the institution and/or organization
called the church. But totally contrary to the church/assembly called to
be set apart through Messiah Y'shua in the Father.

One marches in step with the ways of the world, the other is contrary to
the ways of this world and march in step only with the Holy Spirit and
the Word.

From what we can observe around us, it is pretty clear which is more the

status quo and most widely recognized and seen by the world as the
'church'. Sadly those within mostly do not see or recognize this.

So, in my reading of both the question from Jon, and the answer you give.
I presume you are both addressing the institution and/or organization
called the church? Else why would there be any concern over such matters?

Understand, I am not speaking these things to belittle or come against
Jon or Tom. But these are areas of the 'church' which have troubled me
for some years. That which in scripture (which is mistranslated church)
looks and sounds nothing like what we see today. And if (as I have heard
many say) one believes that the 'church' is like it is because it is MORE
than then, just really need a reality check.

So I have a new question. How do we become that which we have been called
to by scripture and which the Holy Spirit draws us as set apart, chosen,
people of YHWH? IN the world, but not OF the world?

Do we stay and pray in change and correction and fullness and shalom? Or
do we come out of her and move in accordance with the Word and Spirit?
These are sincere questions from my heart. At present I have come out of
her. BUT this causes me grief in that I miss the fellowship, though
if/when I go I cannot bear the lacking of truth and true fellowship
spoken of in scripture and dear to my heart.

There are so many unspoken things within the 'church'. Brother sits next
to brother wearing their masks. Putting on the good old saved face not
facing the reality of those deep hidden things, not confessing one to
another, not really fellowshipping as called to. Superficial at best.

sincerely
laz

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre.
This suggestion "smells" like a political sally. Since you're in a
church
in the US, reality says you are subject to the US Internal Revenue
Service
rules, like it or not. As to what I would do, I would get some good
advice,
such as about taxes if my church does X or Y or Z. Perhaps you have
a
nearby, trusted friend who could help you out.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 9/26/2004 3:14:48 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public

board of
some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war in
Afghanistan
and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that along with
these names
should be listed at least those dead of the Christian churches who
were
drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of Iraq and others in similar
power-positions.

What would you do?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

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[Tom Sathre]

Jonathan,

This is Tom Sathre.

1. Did you get the note I sent you about this last weekend?

2. A pretty good book on this subject is Clouse's "WAR: 4 Christian Views". ISBN 0-87784-801-7.

Tom.

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@juno.com
Sent: Sep 27, 2004 3:14 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war

'Let the dead bury the dead'............?

laz



On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:14:49 -0500 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public
board of some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war
in Afghanistan and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that
along with these names should be listed at least those dead of the
Christian churches who were drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of
Iraq and others in similar power-positions.
What would you do?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

Yahoo! Groups Links







[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] (F)
My former EMail address will disappear later this year; please correct your address book.


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[Tom Sathre]

laz,

This is Tom Sathre. What's going on here is an appeal for elementary fairness. Who wouldn't cry "foul" if a another institution promulgated its political opinion from the viewpoint of its favored status? (The churches in America definitely are in a favored position!) You would have to be hiding under a rock not to notice that the topic of war (in Iraq) is a political hot button these days. Maybe not next year, but certainly now!

You can talk until you're blue in the face about how little or much the church in America should be above politics. The fact is, we should not use our status to promulgate political opinions.

Tom.

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@juno.com
Sent: Sep 28, 2004 5:49 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war

This suggestion is indeed good for the institution and/or organization
called the church. But totally contrary to the church/assembly called to
be set apart through Messiah Y'shua in the Father.

One marches in step with the ways of the world, the other is contrary to
the ways of this world and march in step only with the Holy Spirit and
the Word.

From what we can observe around us, it is pretty clear which is more the

status quo and most widely recognized and seen by the world as the
'church'. Sadly those within mostly do not see or recognize this.

So, in my reading of both the question from Jon, and the answer you give.
I presume you are both addressing the institution and/or organization
called the church? Else why would there be any concern over such matters?

Understand, I am not speaking these things to belittle or come against
Jon or Tom. But these are areas of the 'church' which have troubled me
for some years. That which in scripture (which is mistranslated church)
looks and sounds nothing like what we see today. And if (as I have heard
many say) one believes that the 'church' is like it is because it is MORE
than then, just really need a reality check.

So I have a new question. How do we become that which we have been called
to by scripture and which the Holy Spirit draws us as set apart, chosen,
people of YHWH? IN the world, but not OF the world?

Do we stay and pray in change and correction and fullness and shalom? Or
do we come out of her and move in accordance with the Word and Spirit?
These are sincere questions from my heart. At present I have come out of
her. BUT this causes me grief in that I miss the fellowship, though
if/when I go I cannot bear the lacking of truth and true fellowship
spoken of in scripture and dear to my heart.

There are so many unspoken things within the 'church'. Brother sits next
to brother wearing their masks. Putting on the good old saved face not
facing the reality of those deep hidden things, not confessing one to
another, not really fellowshipping as called to. Superficial at best.

sincerely
laz

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre.
This suggestion "smells" like a political sally. Since you're in a
church
in the US, reality says you are subject to the US Internal Revenue
Service
rules, like it or not. As to what I would do, I would get some good
advice,
such as about taxes if my church does X or Y or Z. Perhaps you have
a
nearby, trusted friend who could help you out.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 9/26/2004 3:14:48 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public

board of
some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war in
Afghanistan
and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that along with
these names
should be listed at least those dead of the Christian churches who
were
drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of Iraq and others in similar
power-positions.

What would you do?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

Yahoo! Groups Links







[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] (F)
My former EMail address will disappear later this year; please correct your address book.


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--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
This is Tom Sathre. What's going on here is an appeal for
elementary fairness. Who wouldn't cry "foul" if a another
institution promulgated its political opinion from the viewpoint of
its favored status?

Tom, what is "elementary fairness"?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Tom Sathre]

laz,

This is Tom Sathre. On rereading the note I sent, I got to wondering if I answered your question. WDYT?

Tom.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Sathre <***@earthlink.net>
Sent: Oct 3, 2004 5:56 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com, ***@juno.com
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war


laz,

This is Tom Sathre. What's going on here is an appeal for elementary fairness. Who wouldn't cry "foul" if a another institution promulgated its political opinion from the viewpoint of its favored status? (The churches in America definitely are in a favored position!) You would have to be hiding under a rock not to notice that the topic of war (in Iraq) is a political hot button these days. Maybe not next year, but certainly now!

You can talk until you're blue in the face about how little or much the church in America should be above politics. The fact is, we should not use our status to promulgate political opinions.

Tom.

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@juno.com
Sent: Sep 28, 2004 5:49 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war

This suggestion is indeed good for the institution and/or organization
called the church. But totally contrary to the church/assembly called to
be set apart through Messiah Y'shua in the Father.

One marches in step with the ways of the world, the other is contrary to
the ways of this world and march in step only with the Holy Spirit and
the Word.

From what we can observe around us, it is pretty clear which is more the

status quo and most widely recognized and seen by the world as the
'church'. Sadly those within mostly do not see or recognize this.

So, in my reading of both the question from Jon, and the answer you give.
I presume you are both addressing the institution and/or organization
called the church? Else why would there be any concern over such matters?

Understand, I am not speaking these things to belittle or come against
Jon or Tom. But these are areas of the 'church' which have troubled me
for some years. That which in scripture (which is mistranslated church)
looks and sounds nothing like what we see today. And if (as I have heard
many say) one believes that the 'church' is like it is because it is MORE
than then, just really need a reality check.

So I have a new question. How do we become that which we have been called
to by scripture and which the Holy Spirit draws us as set apart, chosen,
people of YHWH? IN the world, but not OF the world?

Do we stay and pray in change and correction and fullness and shalom? Or
do we come out of her and move in accordance with the Word and Spirit?
These are sincere questions from my heart. At present I have come out of
her. BUT this causes me grief in that I miss the fellowship, though
if/when I go I cannot bear the lacking of truth and true fellowship
spoken of in scripture and dear to my heart.

There are so many unspoken things within the 'church'. Brother sits next
to brother wearing their masks. Putting on the good old saved face not
facing the reality of those deep hidden things, not confessing one to
another, not really fellowshipping as called to. Superficial at best.

sincerely
laz

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre.
This suggestion "smells" like a political sally. Since you're in a
church
in the US, reality says you are subject to the US Internal Revenue
Service
rules, like it or not. As to what I would do, I would get some good
advice,
such as about taxes if my church does X or Y or Z. Perhaps you have
a
nearby, trusted friend who could help you out.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 9/26/2004 3:14:48 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public

board of
some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war in
Afghanistan
and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that along with
these names
should be listed at least those dead of the Christian churches who
were
drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of Iraq and others in similar
power-positions.

What would you do?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

Yahoo! Groups Links







[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] (F)
My former EMail address will disappear later this year; please correct your address book.




Yahoo! Groups Links









[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] (F)
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[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Post by Tom Sathre
You can talk until you're blue in the face about how little or
much the church in America should be above politics. The fact is, we
should not use our status to promulgate political opinions.
Tom.

Tom, what is a "political opinion"? Remember, anything that is not in faith, is sin.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Tom Sathre]

Jonathan,

This is Tom Sathre.

You (or I) would have to be hiding under a rock, these days, not to notice that actions such as someone (else) suggested your church do was expressing a political opinion. The rightness or wrongness of the war (in Iraq) is definitely a political topic these days.

(... and, BTW, the Bible does define and localize the meaning of "faith" in Romans 14:23. The author said what he meant - and it's different than "faith" in other passages.)

Tom.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan E. Brickman" <***@joshuacorps.org>
Sent: Oct 3, 2004 6:12 AM
To: Tom Sathre <***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re[2]: { Questioners } Recent dead in war

Post by Tom Sathre
You can talk until you're blue in the face about how little or
much the church in America should be above politics. The fact is, we
should not use our status to promulgate political opinions.
Tom.

Tom, what is a "political opinion"? Remember, anything that is not in faith, is sin.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Tom, what is a "political opinion"?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Tom Sathre]

Jonathan,

This is Tom Sathre. "Elementary fairness" is not using your favored position to promulgate your political opinion - or your institution's favored position. You would (rightly) object if another group did the same thing.

Tom.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan E. Brickman" <***@joshuacorps.org>
Sent: Oct 3, 2004 6:14 AM
To: Tom Sathre <***@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re[2]: { Questioners } Recent dead in war

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
This is Tom Sathre. What's going on here is an appeal for
elementary fairness. Who wouldn't cry "foul" if a another
institution promulgated its political opinion from the viewpoint of
its favored status?

Tom, what is "elementary fairness"?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links









[phone] (H)
[phone] (W)
[phone] (F)
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[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Post by Tom Sathre
Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre. "Elementary fairness" is not using your
favored position to promulgate your political opinion - or your
institution's favored position. You would (rightly) object if
another group did the same thing.
Tom.

So, Tom, you are saying that I would be wrong as a Christian recommend that God be obeyed by politicians?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[m***@juno.com]

Tom, I don't think you understand what I am saying. I certainly am not
speaking about 'elementary fairness'.

As for favored position, I do not understand what you mean by this
concerning the body. For those truly of the body are not favored at all,
but scorned and rejected mostly.

But there is a difference between the real and the counterfeit. The
counterfeit indeed is favored, and is the one whom will one day welcome
in the one world religion with open arms. Indeed a big portion of it is
ushering it in already.

The questions I asked concerned the difference between these 2 (the real
and the counterfeit) and how the real should be.

shalom
laz


On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 05:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Tom Sathre

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
This is Tom Sathre. What's going on here is an appeal for elementary
fairness. Who wouldn't cry "foul" if a another institution
promulgated its political opinion from the viewpoint of its favored
status? (The churches in America definitely are in a favored
position!) You would have to be hiding under a rock not to notice
that the topic of war (in Iraq) is a political hot button these
days. Maybe not next year, but certainly now!
You can talk until you're blue in the face about how little or much
the church in America should be above politics. The fact is, we
should not use our status to promulgate political opinions.
Tom.
-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
This suggestion is indeed good for the institution and/or
organization
called the church. But totally contrary to the church/assembly
called to
be set apart through Messiah Y'shua in the Father.
One marches in step with the ways of the world, the other is
contrary to
the ways of this world and march in step only with the Holy Spirit
and
the Word.
From what we can observe around us, it is pretty clear which is more
the
status quo and most widely recognized and seen by the world as the
'church'. Sadly those within mostly do not see or recognize this.
So, in my reading of both the question from Jon, and the answer you
give.
I presume you are both addressing the institution and/or
organization
called the church? Else why would there be any concern over such
matters?
Understand, I am not speaking these things to belittle or come
against
Jon or Tom. But these are areas of the 'church' which have troubled
me
for some years. That which in scripture (which is mistranslated
church)
looks and sounds nothing like what we see today. And if (as I have
heard
many say) one believes that the 'church' is like it is because it is
MORE
than then, just really need a reality check.
So I have a new question. How do we become that which we have been
called
to by scripture and which the Holy Spirit draws us as set apart,
chosen,
people of YHWH? IN the world, but not OF the world?
Do we stay and pray in change and correction and fullness and
shalom? Or
do we come out of her and move in accordance with the Word and
Spirit?
These are sincere questions from my heart. At present I have come
out of
her. BUT this causes me grief in that I miss the fellowship, though
if/when I go I cannot bear the lacking of truth and true fellowship
spoken of in scripture and dear to my heart.
There are so many unspoken things within the 'church'. Brother sits
next
to brother wearing their masks. Putting on the good old saved face
not
facing the reality of those deep hidden things, not confessing one
to
another, not really fellowshipping as called to. Superficial at
best.
sincerely
laz
On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:24:29 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

Post by Tom Sathre
Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre.
This suggestion "smells" like a political sally. Since you're in a
church
in the US, reality says you are subject to the US Internal Revenue
Service
rules, like it or not. As to what I would do, I would get some

good

Post by Tom Sathre
advice,
such as about taxes if my church does X or Y or Z. Perhaps you

have

Post by Tom Sathre
a
nearby, trusted friend who could help you out.
Tom.
Tom Sathre

[Original Message]
Subject: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
It was suggested recently that our church should set up a public

board of
some sort, listing the U.S. soldiers recently dead in war in
Afghanistan
and Iraq. I agreed, with one condition: I said that along with
these names
should be listed at least those dead of the Christian churches who
were
drafted into death by Mr. Hussein of Iraq and others in similar
power-positions.

What would you do?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/feholB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Jonathan E. Brickman]

Post by m***@juno.com
But there is a difference between the real and the counterfeit. The
counterfeit indeed is favored, and is the one whom will one day welcome
in the one world religion with open arms. Indeed a big portion of it is
ushering it in already.

Laz, very well put. Tom, please see the above. I agree most certainly that the people of the true faith do not have a favored position in this world. The liars who only pretend the true faith do have a favored position, as do those they enjoy fighting with.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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