Recent dead in war

I don't think you understand the importance of the documents drafted by
our founding fathers. Or else, maybe you don't care. Fact is, this nation
was founded upon Judeo-Christian principals. For those which think this
is too much to bear, move to Canada...or elsewhere, for those who wish to
live here, embrace this good news and move on towards what the Father has
for us in the future.

Shalom
laz

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
This is Tom Sathre.
Thanks for the direct answer: "Yes, it took several years ..." That
implies
it's irrelevant to quote from the Founding Fathers about, say, the
idea
that this nation was founding on Judeo-Christian values. My mind
changes
over the years, and I can't see any reason theirs didn't, too.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/15/2004 5:10:09 AM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Yes, it took several years to finally get a 'written' constitution

and

set all the things into law. Yet at first it was commonly just

accepted

and lived.
With the influx of pilgrims crossing over came criminals and

others

running from persecution. So we see there was more than one

societal

structure rising up at one time.
But the majority, or maybe the authorative clung to

Judeo/Christian

inclinations and ideals.
THIS eventually won out, but at a cost, as compromise entered in.

But the

root was still the same.
All one has to do is look to where the majority of our laws were
influenced/came from. As well as to read the works of the

founding

fathers of this nation. And yet history, before the founding

fathers, is

more inclusive and reflective of this.
selah
laz
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:27:09 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. The reason I used an unbound variable

("XYZ") in

my
note is to avoid the irrelevance of getting it wrong. But, if

you

prefer me
to use a bound variable, just tell me what you prefer.
Mind if I ask again? What is the opposite viewpoint is? I mean,
"opposite"
to the assertion that this nation was founded on XYZ principles.

think
you used "XYZ=Judeo-Christian" but I may be wrong. Didn't the
Founding
occupy years and years, not a moment in time?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/9/2004 3:43:11 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
As Jon said, the XYZ makes this thread hard to follow for me.

But

believe I get the jist of what you are asking. Must be the way

mind

thinks?
Before the 'founding fathers' wrote our constitution or

anything

else

there were many people who migrated here who believed in

Y'Shua

Messiah and obeyed the Torah of YHWH. They celebrated the

appointed times

of YHWH (at least as required without there being a Temple),

observed the

true Sabbath, and all this entails.
YEARS skipped here!**************
Later the 'founding fathers' wrote the 'foundational

principals'

of how

to live and how we would live in this nation as a believing

pepole

God. No matter that they had already either rejected, denied,

just

lost/forgot what the first ones were about. They laid hold of

Jesus as

Christ and took their moral standard for the 'new government'

from

scriptural instruction. Even though they did not take this all

the

way,

and mixed it with traditions of man.
We were not founded into a non-believing nation, or one which

lived by

the standards of any other country.
Now on a more complicated part of this (complicated because it

only

just now being revealed in the last several years) is just WHO

ARE.

And the answer to this is we are of the Northern Kingdom of

Israel

the

Lost Tribes. In fact there is most likely very few real

gentiles

left

after over 2700 years of assimilation with the nations while

are still

in dispersion among the nations for our punishment!
Understand we are not Judah/Jew, but Israel. And as with

Israel

some

Jews/of Judah are here with us, just as Judah is only in tribe

Israel

out of 12.
So you see it is geneticaly bound in and to us, no matter

those

who deny

it.
In essense I suppose you could say that the true foundation of

this

nation is from the beginning. For YHWH proclaimed this before

the

foundations of the world were laid in and by His Word.
Selah
laz
On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:41:02 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

Jonathan & laz,
You cite a commonly made claim - that this nation was

founded on

XYZ

values
and morals - whatever XYZ may be, you choose. But I would

ask

you

what the
opposite viewpoint is. I've read many citations of words

from

the

Founding
Fathers about why they did what they did. But I know, about

myself,

that a
quotation from me today might be different from a quotation

from

last
year. Didn't the Founding take longer than that?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/2/2004 4:06:03 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and

morals.

I know that the U.S.A. was founded upon morals to be found

the

Old

Testament. Thus I do understand the the U.S.A. was

founded

upon

certain

Jewish morals. But I have never seen any of the

commandments

the

Lord Jesus Christ in law of the U.S.A. Can you name any?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman

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Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-22 05:28:49 UTC

Post by m***@juno.com
I don't think you understand the importance of the documents drafted by
our founding fathers. Or else, maybe you don't care. Fact is, this nation
was founded upon Judeo-Christian principals.

Fact is, the U.S.A. was founded upon the principles of Judas Iscariot
and Barabbas, and not on the principles of Jesus. Judas Iscariot and
Barabbas utilized money and delivery of death to produce their ideas of
justice in this world. This is not Christian, though it is historically
Jewish.

Post by m***@juno.com
For those which think this is too much to bear,

It is a lie. I do not bear it, and have no reason to do so; I enjoy the
freedom of knowing and living in its absence.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-26 04:42:40 UTC

Though it is true that this is what eventually came about. It was not so
in the beginning. But people believe what they want to believe.

I AM concerned you called me a liar though. Though I can stand the
offense, forgive, and move on without being offended. I am not lying.
I MAY at times be wrongfully informed and have to concede or change my
understanding, but I do not lie, not purposely.

I forgive you.

It may behoove us top do a study regarding this to set the record
straight. I am very limited in ability to use the net, but am willing to
try and do this to settle it. But I am not willing to die for this
debate. Not that important.

Shalom Aliechem
laz

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:28:49 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by m***@juno.com
I don't think you understand the importance of the documents

drafted by

Post by m***@juno.com
our founding fathers. Or else, maybe you don't care. Fact is, this

nation

Post by m***@juno.com
was founded upon Judeo-Christian principals.

Fact is, the U.S.A. was founded upon the principles of Judas
Iscariot
and Barabbas, and not on the principles of Jesus. Judas Iscariot
and
Barabbas utilized money and delivery of death to produce their ideas
of
justice in this world. This is not Christian, though it is
historically
Jewish.

Post by m***@juno.com
For those which think this is too much to bear,

It is a lie. I do not bear it, and have no reason to do so; I enjoy
the
freedom of knowing and living in its absence.
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org
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Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-26 13:59:23 UTC

Post by m***@juno.com
I AM concerned you called me a liar though. Though I can stand the
offense, forgive, and move on without being offended. I am not lying.
I MAY at times be wrongfully informed and have to concede or change my
understanding, but I do not lie, not purposely.
I forgive you.

I did not call you a liar. I do not have your name; I was responding to
something written by a person I do not know, whose name is Eddie
Chumney. Mr. Chumney believes a lie, and promulgates it as an attempt
to justify some of the people in this world whom God has not justified.

Are you Eddie Chumney?

Post by m***@juno.com
It may behoove us top do a study regarding this to set the record
straight. I am very limited in ability to use the net, but am willing to
try and do this to settle it.

I will be very happy to compare notes in Scripture on this topic. Shall
we start by collecting the vast number of Commandments of the Lord which
have no place at all in the law of the United States of America?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-26 16:04:49 UTC

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:59:23 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by m***@juno.com
I AM concerned you called me a liar though. Though I can stand

the

Post by m***@juno.com
offense, forgive, and move on without being offended. I am not

lying.

Post by m***@juno.com
I MAY at times be wrongfully informed and have to concede or

change my

Post by m***@juno.com
understanding, but I do not lie, not purposely.
I forgive you.

I did not call you a liar. I do not have your name; I was
responding to
something written by a person I do not know, whose name is Eddie
Chumney. Mr. Chumney believes a lie, and promulgates it as an
attempt
to justify some of the people in this world whom God has not
justified.

None the less, what you spoke was lashon harah, against one who used
scripture and historical events and interpretations to bring a teaching.
You have not given anything but your opinion and no witness to your
words.
Where is he lying? And what do you base this accusation of a fellow
believer in Y'Shua our Messiah on?

Post by m***@juno.com
Are you Eddie Chumney?

No.....

Post by m***@juno.com
It may behoove us top do a study regarding this to set the record
straight. I am very limited in ability to use the net, but am

willing to

Post by m***@juno.com
try and do this to settle it.

Sure:

Exodus 20:2 I am Yahweh thy Elohim, which have brought thee out of the
land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other elohim before me.

This country does not even understand this much less follow it a a
commandment. Neither does the 'church' as far as I can tell or seen.
This is also a commandment which cannot be made into carnal law, for it
is an issue of the heart which only Elohim trully knows.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any
thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that
is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I Yahweh
thy Elohim am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon
the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my
commandments.

Not many I have ever seen or known obey this. Most do not understand the
fullness of it. And this nation indeed has no law regarding it. And most
all I have seen have made it an work to gain, rather than a true issue of
the heart towards YHWH.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh thy Elohim in vain; for Yahweh
will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

This one is not against national law. Though SOME states may have a law
against saying gd. Which is not His name. I thank Yah that we have not
known and used His name much over the 200+ years of this nation for it
would indeed be used and vain and much more.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of Yahweh thy Elohim: in it thou
shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy
manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is
within thy gates:
11 For in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that
in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Yahweh blessed the
sabbath day, and hallowed it.

In thier efforts to enforce an religious law, not of Yah but man, there
used to be laws concerning Sun-day. I remember the blue laws, which for
all practical purposes are null and void now.
At the first, those who came over observed the true Sabbath. Religion
caught up with them.

12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon
the land which Yahweh thy Elohim giveth thee.

I believe there USED to be laws, if not written, understood regarding
this. But now with the lives of so many unborn being murdered and
sacrificed, and the dis-respect towards the elderly and such it is null
and void in most.

13 "You shall not murder.

This is in our national law. But as lawyers increase and loop holes
increase and a hedge is placed about the law which denies the truths of
that law, I fear this as well may become null and void in the future.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Tis definately USED to be in law. There may be some states which still
enforce or have it on the books, but I doubt it.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

We have laws against stealing......

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

There are laws regarding slander and such. Again lawyers pervert the
right rulings in this as well.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours house, thou shalt not covet thy
neighbours wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox,
nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbours.

Issue of the heart. Cannot be enforced in any government other than
theocracy of YHWH.

There are MANY other laws. I know of no one who walks upright in all of
them, nor do I know any nation which enforces all of them.
None the less our very foundation IS upon Judeo/christian influences. And
was brought about by the Father. It started very much closer to the real,
and yes, it perverted and compromised over time. Such seems to be the
nature of His people Israel!
THIS is the country spoken of in scripture. A prophecy given to King
David when ALL Israel was living in shalom in the land!

2 Samuel 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and
will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no
more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as
beforetime,

1 Chronicles 17:9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and
will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved
no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as
at the beginning,

Further more:
Deuteronomy 29:28 And Yahweh rooted them out of their land in anger, and
in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as
it is this day.

Eventually most of the MIXED multitude of Israel coming here, yet
dispersed throughout ALL the nations.

The prophesies are in scripture. Israel was living in shalom on all sides
when the prophecy was given, ALL of Israel. And if you search out the
nations and history, to this day, no other nation meets the requirements
of this fullfillment other than th good ol' USA.

YHWH goes further to say that ONE DAY He will call us out, bring us back
hame and redeem/deliver/save all of Israel. Aliyah!

Now tradition of man has it that the 'church' is 'spiritual' Israel.
Maybe so, but then ALL Israel is spiritual and natural. As He says, there
is no difference, we are all (those who believe and obey) become heirs
and of the commanwealth of Israel.

There is only one body, one assembly, one people, one nation in the end.
Even now Ezekiel 37 is coming to pass before us, as He begins to hold the
2 sticks (Southern Kingdom and Northern Kingdom) in His hand.

So, I cannot deny what I know to be true, and I have witness's.

shalom
laz

Post by m***@juno.com
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-26 22:39:37 UTC

I did not call you a liar. I do not have your name; I was responding
to something written by a person I do not know, whose name is Eddie
Chumney. Mr. Chumney believes a lie, and promulgates it as an attempt
to justify some of the people in this world whom God has not justified.

None the less, what you spoke was lashon harah,

"lashon harah" is Talmud. A large number of things stated by the Lord
Jesus was and is considered by Talmudists as "lashon harah". I am not
concerned with the condemnations of Talmudists. My Lord is condemned by
them similarly, and I am part of Him.

Post by m***@juno.com
Where is he lying? And what do you base this accusation of a fellow
believer in Y'Shua our Messiah on?

He is lying here:

/There are two MAJOR disagreements between the two houses of Israel
Christianity and Judaism).
/

in which he claims that there exists a house of Israel outside of
Christ. According to Christ, there is no one who is justified,
considered righteous, outside of Christ.

And he is lying here:

/Judaism (house of Judah) has preserved the truth that the Torah is
eternal and is the Tree of Life given by the G-d of Israel./

in which he claims that the Torah is eternal, and is a tree of life.
According to Christ, the Law -- "Torah" means Law -- will remain only
until the end of the heaven and the earth. According to Christ, those
who read the Torah without Christ have no life.

And he is lying here:

/The house of Judah (Judaism) is the root and natural branches of
the olive tree of the G-d of Israel.
/

Judaism is not the root of the olive tree. According to the prophet
Isaiah, as according to the Apostle Paul, Christ is the root.

Post by m***@juno.com
Are you Eddie Chumney?
No.....

Then why felt you a need to forgive me?

Post by m***@juno.com
There are MANY other laws. I know of no one who walks upright in all of
them, nor do I know any nation which enforces all of them.
None the less our very foundation IS upon Judeo/christian influences.

I suggest that the foundation of the U.S.A. is the concept of
inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I suggest that the concept of inalienable rights is an intrinsic
violation of a large number of the statements and commandments of God,
in Scripture of both Old and New Covenants. It is written that God has
required and will require a large number of violations of what some men
call their inalienable rights. Do you wish some specific examples?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-27 17:43:51 UTC

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 16:39:37 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

I did not call you a liar. I do not have your name; I was

responding

to something written by a person I do not know, whose name is

Eddie

Chumney. Mr. Chumney believes a lie, and promulgates it as an

attempt

to justify some of the people in this world whom God has not

justified.

Post by m***@juno.com
None the less, what you spoke was lashon harah,

"lashon harah" is Talmud. A large number of things stated by the
Lord
Jesus was and is considered by Talmudists as "lashon harah". I am
not
concerned with the condemnations of Talmudists. My Lord is
condemned by
them similarly, and I am part of Him.

Yes, the phrase lashon harah comes from the Talmud (which I do not study,
but have read very little), but the teaching of this is indeed in both
the Tanukh AND the Brit Chadasha. And Y'Shua NEVER spoke lashon harah,
which my understanding means to speak with an evil tongue...

In what little I have read of the Talmud it has much error in it. But
also has much to glean from concerning Hebrew thaught and understanding
in those days.

I DO NOT believe we are to follow Talmud....

Post by m***@juno.com
Where is he lying? And what do you base this accusation of a

fellow

Post by m***@juno.com
believer in Y'Shua our Messiah on?

/There are two MAJOR disagreements between the two houses of
Israel
Christianity and Judaism).
/
in which he claims that there exists a house of Israel outside of
Christ. According to Christ, there is no one who is justified,
considered righteous, outside of Christ.

We agree here. But the 'There are two MAJOR disagreements between the two
houses of Israel
Christianity and Judaism).' statement is true none the less.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
/Judaism (house of Judah) has preserved the truth that the Torah
is
eternal and is the Tree of Life given by the G-d of Israel./
in which he claims that the Torah is eternal, and is a tree of life.

Well, I will believe scripture over mans opinion or interpretation of
scripture. Scripture says it is eternal.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
According to Christ, the Law -- "Torah" means Law -- will remain
only
until the end of the heaven and the earth.

A better interpretation of Torah is 'instruction' and comes from the word
Yarah which means to 'teach/shoot/aim as with an arrow so as to hit the
mark'.
Law IS contained 'within' Torah... So Torah CAN also mean law....

AND, Y'Shua did not say Torah would end then. He said that these things
would cease to exist before Torah would cease to exist. Showing us a
visible thing to relate this truth to.

According to Christ,

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
those
who read the Torah without Christ have no life.

Actually, He said MUCH MORE than that about Torah.

That Torah was speaking about Him. Also that: Matthew 5: 17 ¶ Think not
that I am come to destroy the Torah, or the prophets: I am not come to
destroy, but to fulfil/make full.....
He also said that 'scripture was unbreakable....'

Now the only scripture they had at the time was the Tanukh
(Torah/Prophets/Writings)...

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
/The house of Judah (Judaism) is the root and natural branches
of
the olive tree of the G-d of Israel.
/
Judaism is not the root of the olive tree. According to the prophet
Isaiah, as according to the Apostle Paul, Christ is the root.

Here we agree. I will try and check this out.

Post by m***@juno.com
Are you Eddie Chumney?
No.....

Then why felt you a need to forgive me?

Your reply seemed to be directed towards me. I apologize for the
mis-understanding there...but I forgive you qanyway!.....<s>

Also, I perhaps should not reply to posts when I am in pain or sick like
I was that day. I sometimes tend to jump too quickely or reply amiss.

Post by m***@juno.com
There are MANY other laws. I know of no one who walks upright in

all of

Post by m***@juno.com
them, nor do I know any nation which enforces all of them.
None the less our very foundation IS upon Judeo/christian

influences.
I suggest that the foundation of the U.S.A. is the concept of
inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Yes, in the final anylasis this is true. Sadly we have come a long way
(backwards) from those who first came here.
But scripture speaks to how we are, and it also shows that even so, He
has a plan and it will be done.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
I suggest that the concept of inalienable rights is an intrinsic
violation of a large number of the statements and commandments of
God,

I agree. Much of what you speak of here is actually perversions and
mis-understanding of Him and His word.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
in Scripture of both Old and New Covenants. It is written that God
has
required and will require a large number of violations of what some
men
call their inalienable rights. Do you wish some specific examples?

If you desire to. I believe we both see these clearly. But that does not
equate to Elohim being done with this nation. Though I trully believe
judgment will increase over this nation. And I also believe that as the
USA we will cease to exist as we now are in the not so long future
because of this.
The worst sin of this nation? Besides pride and greed? Being in the
forefront, a leader in convincing Israel to give up land for peace.

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

Thus saith Yahweh, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the
ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which
divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; Yahweh of hosts is his
name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith Yahweh, then the
seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
(Jer 31:35-36 RNKJV)

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Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-28 14:42:37 UTC

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
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<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">

 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">I DO NOT believe we are to follow Talmud.... 
</blockquote>
Good.  I hope, then, that we can agree not to call each others' tongues
evil, because according to the Scripture of the New Covenant, both our
tongues are evil, except when they are motivated by that other Person
in both of us, the Holy Spirit. 
 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">He is lying here: 
 
/There are two MAJOR disagreements between the two houses of 
Israel 
Christianity and Judaism). 
/ 
 
in which he claims that there exists a house of Israel outside of 
Christ. According to Christ, there is no one who is justified, 
considered righteous, outside of Christ. 
</blockquote>
 
We agree here. But the 'There are two MAJOR disagreements between the
two 
houses of Israel (Christianity and Judaism).' statement is true none
the less. 
</blockquote>
I would appreciate it if you would cease telling me that we agree, when
referring to a statement which calls Judaism a house of Israel. 
Judaism is religion which exists in denial and defiance of the
Messiah.  No such religion is a house of Israel.  It is a house of
Satan, according to the Word of God quoted in the Gospels as well as
the Book of the Revelation.  Are you familiar with these statements of
the Word? 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">And he is lying here: 
 
/Judaism (house of Judah) has preserved the truth that the Torah 
is 
eternal and is the Tree of Life given by the G-d of Israel./ 
 
in which he claims that the Torah is eternal, and is a tree of life. 
</blockquote>
 
Well, I will believe scripture over mans opinion or interpretation of 
scripture. Scripture says it is eternal. 
</blockquote>
No, Scripture does not say that the Law is eternal.  The Lord says that
it will pass away, when all comes to pass. 
 
Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way
shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to
pass. 
(Matthew 5:18) 
 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">And he is lying here: 
 
/The house of Judah (Judaism) is the root and natural branches 
of 
the olive tree of the G-d of Israel. 
/ 
 
Judaism is not the root of the olive tree. According to the prophet
Isaiah, as according to the Apostle Paul, Christ is the root. 
</blockquote>
 
Here we agree. I will try and check this out. 
 
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">Are you Eddie Chumney? 
 
No..... 
</blockquote>
Then why felt you a need to forgive me? 
</blockquote>
 
Also, I perhaps should not reply to posts when I am in pain or sick like 
I was that day. I sometimes tend to jump too quickely or reply amiss. 
</blockquote>
Me too. 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">I suggest that the foundation of the U.S.A.
is the concept of 
inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 
</blockquote>
 
Yes, in the final anylasis this is true. Sadly we have come a long way 
(backwards) from those who first came here. </blockquote>
Sadly?  No, I do not think it is sad that such terrible violations of
the Word of God are being weakened and destroyed. 
 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">I suggest that the concept of inalienable
rights is an intrinsic 
violation of a large number of the statements and commandments of 
God, 
</blockquote>
 
I agree. Much of what you speak of here is actually perversions and 
mis-understanding of Him and His word. 
</blockquote>
I do not think that the concept of inalienable rights of men is a
perversion or misunderstanding of Him and His Word.  I think it is an
outright violation and defiance of Him and His Word.  It was invented
by a group of people who are well-known for such behavior. 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">in Scripture of both Old and New Covenants.
It is written that God 
has required and will require a large number of violations of what some
 
men call their inalienable rights. Do you wish some specific examples? 
</blockquote>
 
If you desire to. I believe we both see these clearly. But that does
not equate to Elohim being done with this nation. Though I trully
believe judgment will increase over this nation. And I also believe
that as the USA we will cease to exist as we now are in the not so long
future because of this. The worst sin of this nation? Besides pride and
greed? Being in the 
forefront, a leader in convincing Israel to give up land for peace. 
</blockquote>
The Israel of today is not a holy nation.  It claims the most vile city
in the world, called Sodom and Egypt by the Holy One, as its capital. 
Every year it tries to stomp out the conversion of its people to the
Way and the Truth and the Life.  God has already weeped over it, and
condemned it, and slated it for total destruction.  I will not try to
do other than God in this matter. 
<blockquote cite="mid20041127.114402.-***@juno.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"> 
-- 
Jonathan E. Brickman 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://joshuacorps.org">http://joshuacorps.org</a> 
</blockquote>
 
“Thus saith Yahweh, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the 
ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which 
divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; Yahweh of hosts is his 
name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith Yahweh, then the 
seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.” 
(Jer 31:35-36 RNKJV) 
</blockquote>
Indeed.  The seed.  The seed is also Christ.  The seed is not Sodom and
Egypt, and it is not anyone who serves Sodom and Egypt. 
 
-- 
Jonathan E. Brickman 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://joshuacorps.org">http://joshuacorps.org</a> 
 

 



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Tom Sathre

2004-11-28 22:36:07 UTC

Laz,

This is Tom Sathre.

This note from you is not up to your usual standard. "Move to Canada" is
not the best example of your writing.

You don't have to like what I wrote.

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/21/2004 4:36:57 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
I don't think you understand the importance of the documents drafted by
our founding fathers. Or else, maybe you don't care. Fact is, this nation
was founded upon Judeo-Christian principals. For those which think this
is too much to bear, move to Canada...or elsewhere, for those who wish to
live here, embrace this good news and move on towards what the Father has
for us in the future.
Shalom
laz

[Original Message]
Date: 11/15/2004 5:10:09 AM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Yes, it took several years to finally get a 'written' constitution

and

set all the things into law. Yet at first it was commonly just

accepted

and lived.
With the influx of pilgrims crossing over came criminals and

others

running from persecution. So we see there was more than one

societal

structure rising up at one time.
But the majority, or maybe the authorative clung to

Judeo/Christian

inclinations and ideals.
THIS eventually won out, but at a cost, as compromise entered in.

But the

root was still the same.
All one has to do is look to where the majority of our laws were
influenced/came from. As well as to read the works of the

founding

fathers of this nation. And yet history, before the founding

fathers, is

more inclusive and reflective of this.
selah
laz
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:27:09 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. The reason I used an unbound variable

("XYZ") in

my
note is to avoid the irrelevance of getting it wrong. But, if

you

think
you used "XYZ=Judeo-Christian" but I may be wrong. Didn't the
Founding
occupy years and years, not a moment in time?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/9/2004 3:43:11 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
As Jon said, the XYZ makes this thread hard to follow for me.

But

believe I get the jist of what you are asking. Must be the way

mind

thinks?
Before the 'founding fathers' wrote our constitution or

anything

else

there were many people who migrated here who believed in

Y'Shua

Messiah and obeyed the Torah of YHWH. They celebrated the

appointed times

of YHWH (at least as required without there being a Temple),

observed the

true Sabbath, and all this entails.
YEARS skipped here!**************
Later the 'founding fathers' wrote the 'foundational

principals'

of how

to live and how we would live in this nation as a believing

pepole

God. No matter that they had already either rejected, denied,

just

lost/forgot what the first ones were about. They laid hold of

Jesus as

Christ and took their moral standard for the 'new government'

from

scriptural instruction. Even though they did not take this all

the

way,

and mixed it with traditions of man.
We were not founded into a non-believing nation, or one which

lived by

the standards of any other country.
Now on a more complicated part of this (complicated because it

only

just now being revealed in the last several years) is just WHO

ARE.

And the answer to this is we are of the Northern Kingdom of

Israel

the

Lost Tribes. In fact there is most likely very few real

gentiles

left

after over 2700 years of assimilation with the nations while

are still

in dispersion among the nations for our punishment!
Understand we are not Judah/Jew, but Israel. And as with

Israel

some

Jews/of Judah are here with us, just as Judah is only in tribe

Israel

out of 12.
So you see it is geneticaly bound in and to us, no matter

those

who deny

it.
In essense I suppose you could say that the true foundation of

this

nation is from the beginning. For YHWH proclaimed this before

the

foundations of the world were laid in and by His Word.
Selah
laz
On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:41:02 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

Jonathan & laz,
You cite a commonly made claim - that this nation was

founded on

XYZ

values
and morals - whatever XYZ may be, you choose. But I would

ask

you

what the
opposite viewpoint is. I've read many citations of words

from

the

Founding
Fathers about why they did what they did. But I know, about

myself,

that a
quotation from me today might be different from a quotation

from

last
year. Didn't the Founding take longer than that?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/2/2004 4:06:03 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and

morals.

I know that the U.S.A. was founded upon morals to be found

the

Old

Testament. Thus I do understand the the U.S.A. was

founded

upon

certain

Jewish morals. But I have never seen any of the

commandments

the

Lord Jesus Christ in law of the U.S.A. Can you name any?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-29 13:07:57 UTC

I apologize Tom. The 'statement' was not personally for you, but for many
others I do believe this. Though I have some personal issues right now
which do not mix well with communication with others (pain, sickness,
etc....), I AM fully displeased with the attacks on this President and
this nation coming from the left. And their calling right wrong, and
wrong right.... confirmation of the truth of scripture.

Humbly
laz

"Jewish Christians who maintained the apostolic legacy were accepted by
neither Jew nor professing Christian. They were occasionally viewed as a
political threat by authorities. Several Roman emperors examined their
leaders, who were the descendants of Jesus' family, to see if they were a
potential menace to the empire. From 90 A.D. the Jews banned them from
the synagogues, and from the middle of the second century catholic
churchmen strongly condemned their beliefs as unworthy of Christ."

Post by Tom Sathre
Laz,
This is Tom Sathre.
This note from you is not up to your usual standard. "Move to
Canada" is
not the best example of your writing.
You don't have to like what I wrote.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/21/2004 4:36:57 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
I don't think you understand the importance of the documents

drafted by

our founding fathers. Or else, maybe you don't care. Fact is, this

nation

was founded upon Judeo-Christian principals. For those which think

this

is too much to bear, move to Canada...or elsewhere, for those who

wish to

live here, embrace this good news and move on towards what the

Father has

for us in the future.
Shalom
laz
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:03:10 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
This is Tom Sathre.
Thanks for the direct answer: "Yes, it took several years ..."

That

Post by Tom Sathre
implies
it's irrelevant to quote from the Founding Fathers about, say,

the

Post by Tom Sathre
idea
that this nation was founding on Judeo-Christian values. My mind
changes
over the years, and I can't see any reason theirs didn't, too.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/15/2004 5:10:09 AM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Yes, it took several years to finally get a 'written'

constitution

Post by Tom Sathre
and

set all the things into law. Yet at first it was commonly just

accepted

and lived.
With the influx of pilgrims crossing over came criminals and

others

running from persecution. So we see there was more than one

societal

structure rising up at one time.
But the majority, or maybe the authorative clung to

Judeo/Christian

inclinations and ideals.
THIS eventually won out, but at a cost, as compromise entered

in.

Post by Tom Sathre
But the

root was still the same.
All one has to do is look to where the majority of our laws

were

influenced/came from. As well as to read the works of the

founding

fathers of this nation. And yet history, before the founding

fathers, is

more inclusive and reflective of this.
selah
laz
On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 18:27:09 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. The reason I used an unbound variable

("XYZ") in

my
note is to avoid the irrelevance of getting it wrong. But,

Post by Tom Sathre
you

prefer me
to use a bound variable, just tell me what you prefer.
Mind if I ask again? What is the opposite viewpoint is? I

mean,

"opposite"
to the assertion that this nation was founded on XYZ

principles.

Post by Tom Sathre
I

think
you used "XYZ=Judeo-Christian" but I may be wrong. Didn't

the

Founding
occupy years and years, not a moment in time?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/9/2004 3:43:11 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
As Jon said, the XYZ makes this thread hard to follow for

me.

Post by Tom Sathre
But

believe I get the jist of what you are asking. Must be the

way

Post by Tom Sathre
my

mind

thinks?
Before the 'founding fathers' wrote our constitution or

anything

else

there were many people who migrated here who believed in

Y'Shua

Messiah and obeyed the Torah of YHWH. They celebrated the

appointed times

of YHWH (at least as required without there being a

Temple),

observed the

true Sabbath, and all this entails.
YEARS skipped here!**************
Later the 'founding fathers' wrote the 'foundational

principals'

of how

to live and how we would live in this nation as a

believing

Post by Tom Sathre
pepole

God. No matter that they had already either rejected,

denied,

Post by Tom Sathre
or

just

lost/forgot what the first ones were about. They laid hold

Jesus as

Christ and took their moral standard for the 'new

government'

from

scriptural instruction. Even though they did not take this

all

Post by Tom Sathre
the

way,

and mixed it with traditions of man.
We were not founded into a non-believing nation, or one

which

lived by

the standards of any other country.
Now on a more complicated part of this (complicated

because it

Post by Tom Sathre
is

only

just now being revealed in the last several years) is just

WHO

Post by Tom Sathre
WE

ARE.

And the answer to this is we are of the Northern Kingdom

Post by Tom Sathre
Israel

the

Lost Tribes. In fact there is most likely very few real

gentiles

left

after over 2700 years of assimilation with the nations

while

Post by Tom Sathre
we

are still

in dispersion among the nations for our punishment!
Understand we are not Judah/Jew, but Israel. And as with

Israel

some

Jews/of Judah are here with us, just as Judah is only in

tribe

Post by Tom Sathre
of

Israel

out of 12.
So you see it is geneticaly bound in and to us, no matter

those

who deny

it.
In essense I suppose you could say that the true foundation

this

nation is from the beginning. For YHWH proclaimed this

before

Post by Tom Sathre
the

foundations of the world were laid in and by His Word.
Selah
laz
On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:41:02 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

Jonathan & laz,
You cite a commonly made claim - that this nation was

founded on

XYZ

values
and morals - whatever XYZ may be, you choose. But I

would

Post by Tom Sathre
ask

you

what the
opposite viewpoint is. I've read many citations of words

from

the

Founding
Fathers about why they did what they did. But I know,

about

myself,

that a
quotation from me today might be different from a

quotation

Post by Tom Sathre
from

last
year. Didn't the Founding take longer than that?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
From: Jonathan E. Brickman
Date: 11/2/2004 4:06:03 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values

and

morals.

I know that the U.S.A. was founded upon morals to be

found

Post by Tom Sathre
in

the

Old

Testament. Thus I do understand the the U.S.A. was

founded

upon

certain

Jewish morals. But I have never seen any of the

commandments

the

Lord Jesus Christ in law of the U.S.A. Can you name

any?

--
Jonathan E. Brickman

Yahoo! Groups Links

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
--------------------~-->
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