Recent dead in war

Discussion:

Recent dead in war

Tom Sathre

2004-10-31 14:49:22 UTC

laz,

This is Tom Sathre. I gave examples, such as women being saved through
childbirth, in which it does not work to understand in a single way a
single word. Was my writing unclear? The "bridge verse" at the end of
Romans 14 is another example.

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/25/2004 2:16:46 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
Room for dispute? That would depend on what is being disputed. Romans 14
is essentially speaking about food, in particular the difference between
vegetarians and those who eat meat.
All in all Romans 14 agree with what I am stating below.
Now if you are speaking of the judgment part, you would have to throw
away MUCH of scripture to say we do not judge or make right judgment at
all. One must learn to understand the difference of what scripture is
speaking to. As I do not believe there is true conflict in scripture.
We can continue with this thread, but I need to know just what area you
disagree with?
For example, there are certain standards of the faith which are constant
and unchanging and vital to the faith. These are not disputable. There
are also judgments and such which are undisputable.
laz

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. What about the disputable matters, such as
described in
Romans 14 (and many other places)? In your theology is there room
for
dispute?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/19/2004 1:31:15 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
Agreed, we are not. But this is not to say we are not supposed to

be.

Y'Shua being the HEAD? THAT IS true theocracy.
As for political tests. I agree with your comment on that. I am

not

Republican nor Democrat, I would most likely be called a TRUE
Independent. Not locked into any one creed of political

persuasion.

Each political party is one of extremes, at least when running

for

office. I find that each holds some truth, just like each

different (so

called) denomination within the body. But neither has all the

truth or

pure truth. Which is ONE reason why Y'Shua our Messiah is the Head

of the

body of this theocracy. For we cannot (as true believers) base

our

decisions upon circumstances or outward situations or how it

looks,

whether good or bad. But ONLY by the Head, Y'Shua which has

released the

Holy Spirit unto us for discernment and understanding....
As I spoke in another post to another list. What if He called us

proclaim judgment? What if, against all we believe and hold dear,

when we

come to vote He speaks to us and says, 'THIS one, or THAT one'?

Contrary

to everything we thought in the natural?
Selah
laz
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:13:29 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

laz,
Do you want references to the history of church and state in this
country
in the last 225 years? The plain truth is that there is no

political

test
for walking in the spirit; many, many people have claimed to be

the

Messiah. Almost all the historical info in the Bible concerns a
theocracy,
which we in the US today are NOT.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/12/2004 6:20:43 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
Well it happens all the time and I do not cry 'foul'. Though

times I

DO question the common sense of some, as well as their

blindness

and

deafness.
If by 'favored status' you mean of those in positions of power

and

authority, that is another things altogether. Yet I still do

not

know if

I would cry 'foul'.
I guess I am not fully in understanding of the question....

Why

would one

of the spirit cry 'foul' against something rather than BE an

example with

their life as their statement?
shalom
laz
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:45:06 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

Laz,
This is Tom Sathre. So

Who wouldn't cry "foul" if a another institution
promulgated its political opinion from the viewpoint of

its

favored

status?

Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-4697 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/3/2004 6:19:27 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Recent dead in war
Tom, I don't think you understand what I am saying. I

certainly am

not

speaking about 'elementary fairness'.
As for favored position, I do not understand what you mean

this

concerning the body. For those truly of the body are not

favored

at all,

but scorned and rejected mostly.
But there is a difference between the real and the

counterfeit.

The

counterfeit indeed is favored, and is the one whom will

one

day

welcome

in the one world religion with open arms. Indeed a big

portion

it is

ushering it in already.
The questions I asked concerned the difference between

these 2

(the real

and the counterfeit) and how the real should be.
shalom
laz

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Tom Sathre

2004-10-31 15:16:57 UTC

Permalink

Friends,

Does anyone have a religious test for political office?

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/25/2004 1:21:16 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
First of all, 'no interpretation of scripture is personal'....Kefa/Peter
wrote that.....
Second, if what I wrote made you think I believe the 'church' is not
carnal you have definitely mis-understood me. Most of the ones who call
themselves church are carnal just as the world is carnal. There are FEW
who are not and make up the true body. And even in this, not saying that
they do not give in to carnality at all..even Paul and the others did.
Only Y'Shua walked fully.....
The real of the 'church' and state being separate is totally other than
anything carnal. The opinion given by judges and such of this is totally
carnal, AND is a total mis-understanding of the Constitution and the Bill
of Rights....
laz

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre. The reason I see separation of church and state
in
laz's opinion here is that it amounts to saying that everything
that's not
"church" is "carnal". This allows no room for disputable matters,
and this
allows no test to be constructed to decide a matter as far as it
being
"carnal" and "non-carnal". (If you propose a test, I can always
respond
that I read the Bible differently. As you get to know me, you'll
form your
own opinion about the likelihood that responses like this from me
are
truthful. Some parts of the Bible are plain and some parts are hard
to
understand. That's a non-testability built right in.)
That's the start of the reason that church and state were
separated.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/23/2004 4:00:56 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Why, Tom, do you say that Laz's opinion cited below is separation

church and state? I see none of the terms "separation", "church",

"state" in his statement. I see only the Word of God.

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is separation of

church
and

state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a

world-wide
opinion?

Tom.

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political opinion is

nothing

less or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal

understanding

and belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
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Tom Sathre

2004-10-31 16:11:59 UTC

Permalink

laz,

This is Tom Sathre.

Section 6 of the US Constitution forbids setting up of religious tests for
political office - for example, "You must be a member of XYZ religious
group to be President." The plain fact is that the members of XYZ religious
group think that theirs is best. If they thought the group was wrong about
something important, they wouldn't stay. But I find that members of
religious groups rarely are schooled in civics. Frequently the schooling in
"civics" is from the leaders of XYZ.

Perhaps you and I are talking past each other. My guess of what you mean is
that the US religious and civic organizations cannot be identical. Is that
what you mean?

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/24/2004 4:57:52 AM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
That IS worldwide, and fact.
The seperation is because they are two different systems. One is
Elohim's, one is the worlds. THIS is not only in regards to the political
position taken by the so called seperation of church and state from the
governments legalese dept. But more. The two CANNOT be one. Which is not
even in the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights, BUT maybe is 'hinted at'
in the scriptures? But not in the way it is intepreted by the government
and fringe groups with political agendas.
laz

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is separation of
church and
state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a world-wide
opinion?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/19/2004 4:43:06 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political opinion is

nothing less

or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal understanding

and

belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

Excellent :)
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
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m***@juno.com

2004-11-02 04:46:32 UTC

Permalink

This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and morals. So in
essence the Constitution and other bills and writings were based upon
this foundation. So in this sense a resounding YES.
Over the years the enemy has slipped in and perverted the church vs.
state issue. The very Ten Commandments they are now trying to outlaw in
government buildings and properties is the very building block of all the
laws of this nation from its founding.

Now as for 'US religious and civic organizations', you are correct as
regards secular vs. those who are of the body. But those of the body
indeed NEED to fully be ONE in both areas within the body.

laz

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
This is Tom Sathre.
Section 6 of the US Constitution forbids setting up of religious
tests for
political office - for example, "You must be a member of XYZ
religious
group to be President." The plain fact is that the members of XYZ
religious
group think that theirs is best. If they thought the group was wrong
about
something important, they wouldn't stay. But I find that members of
religious groups rarely are schooled in civics. Frequently the
schooling in
"civics" is from the leaders of XYZ.
Perhaps you and I are talking past each other. My guess of what you
mean is
that the US religious and civic organizations cannot be identical.
Is that
what you mean?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

political

position taken by the so called seperation of church and state

from the

governments legalese dept. But more. The two CANNOT be one. Which

is not

even in the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights, BUT maybe is

'hinted at'

in the scriptures? But not in the way it is intepreted by the

government

and fringe groups with political agendas.
laz
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:51:26 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is separation of
church and
state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a

world-wide

opinion?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/19/2004 4:43:06 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political opinion is

nothing less

or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal

understanding

and

belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

Excellent :)
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
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Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-02 23:06:03 UTC

Permalink

Post by m***@juno.com
This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and morals.

I know that the U.S.A. was founded upon morals to be found in the Old
Testament. Thus I do understand the the U.S.A. was founded upon certain
Jewish morals. But I have never seen any of the commandments of the
Lord Jesus Christ in law of the U.S.A. Can you name any?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-02 04:34:56 UTC

Permalink

Again, I do not quite understand your question enough to answer it. Do
you mean a 'person', an organization, a church or denomination of.
And also depends upon what you mean by religious. Whether 'PURE' religion
spoken of in scriptures, or just religion as seen and interpreted by man
and his ideals?

I CAN answer for myself though. In regards to my voting lets say, I
decide based mostly upon scriptural direction. I suppose the one (what
ever political persuasion) whom reflects scriptural moral backbone the
most gets my vote. Admittedly this is also with regards to spiritual
guidance by the Holy Spirit.

This 'scriptural' I speak of is not of personal interpretation either.
Most things are black and white in scripture.

laz

Post by Tom Sathre
Friends,
Does anyone have a religious test for political office?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/25/2004 1:21:16 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
First of all, 'no interpretation of scripture is

personal'....Kefa/Peter

wrote that.....
Second, if what I wrote made you think I believe the 'church' is

not

carnal you have definitely mis-understood me. Most of the ones who

call

themselves church are carnal just as the world is carnal. There

are FEW

who are not and make up the true body. And even in this, not

saying that

they do not give in to carnality at all..even Paul and the others

did.

Only Y'Shua walked fully.....
The real of the 'church' and state being separate is totally other

than

anything carnal. The opinion given by judges and such of this is

totally

carnal, AND is a total mis-understanding of the Constitution and

the Bill

of Rights....
laz
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:12 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre. The reason I see separation of church and

state

in
laz's opinion here is that it amounts to saying that everything
that's not
"church" is "carnal". This allows no room for disputable

matters,

and this
allows no test to be constructed to decide a matter as far as it
being
"carnal" and "non-carnal". (If you propose a test, I can always
respond
that I read the Bible differently. As you get to know me, you'll
form your
own opinion about the likelihood that responses like this from

are
truthful. Some parts of the Bible are plain and some parts are

hard

to
understand. That's a non-testability built right in.)
That's the start of the reason that church and state were
separated.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/23/2004 4:00:56 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Why, Tom, do you say that Laz's opinion cited below is

separation

church and state? I see none of the terms "separation",

"church",

"state" in his statement. I see only the Word of God.

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is separation

church
and

state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a

world-wide
opinion?

Tom.

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political opinion

nothing

less or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal

understanding

and belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
Yahoo! Groups Links

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-03 00:00:06 UTC

Permalink

Law against murder, used to be laws against adultery and homosexuality,
laws against theft and stealing, etc....

laz

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:06:03 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by Jonathan E. Brickman

Post by m***@juno.com
This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and morals.

I know that the U.S.A. was founded upon morals to be found in the
Old
Testament. Thus I do understand the the U.S.A. was founded upon
certain
Jewish morals. But I have never seen any of the commandments of the
Lord Jesus Christ in law of the U.S.A. Can you name any?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-03 02:09:23 UTC

Permalink

Post by m***@juno.com
Law against murder, used to be laws against adultery and homosexuality,
laws against theft and stealing, etc....
laz

All of these are Jewish laws. None of them are commandments specific to
Christ. Do you have any commandments specific to Christ which are part
of the founding of the U.S.A.?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-03 09:54:17 UTC

Permalink

The laws (instructions) of Y'Shua are not different from the Father's.
This is an error on the part of man and a means of justifying
disobedience or lawlessness.

AND they are not just 'Jewish' laws. When the 'Instructions' of YHWH were
given to man, there was no Jew. Matter of fact none of the people were
called Jews until after the dispersion of the Northern Kingdom.
YHWH's Instructions were for ALL of those of the nation He names Israel.
Not for Judah along, but for ALL the seed of Abraham. Who was called and
walked in obedience to YHWH's Instructions. Yet Abraham was not a Jew.

Now there ARE Jewish laws, and many do not have ANYTHING to do with
YHWH's laws accepting in their own minds and pride. THESE they follow
more than YHWH's Instructions and these are what Y'Shua was correcting
them about when He came first.

What Judeo-Christian means is of those who believe Y'Shua is Messiah, and
follow the ways of YHWH. Just as many did who first came over to this
land centuries ago. But unfortunately, religion found them out and they
also became as those Y'Shua came first to correct. Now calling Torah a
strange thing.

Matthew 5: 17 ¶ "Dont think that I came to destroy the Torah or the
prophets. I didnt come to destroy, but to fill up ( bring to
realisation).
18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not
even one smallest letter {literally, iota} or one tiny pen stroke {or,
serif} shall in any way pass away from Torah, until all things are
accomplished.
19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and
teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven;
but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom
of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the
scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of
Heaven.

Selah
laz

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:09:23 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by m***@juno.com

Post by m***@juno.com
Law against murder, used to be laws against adultery and

homosexuality,

Post by m***@juno.com
laws against theft and stealing, etc....
laz

All of these are Jewish laws. None of them are commandments
specific to
Christ. Do you have any commandments specific to Christ which are
part
of the founding of the U.S.A.?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman

Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-03 13:02:54 UTC

Permalink

Post by m***@juno.com
The laws (instructions) of Y'Shua are not different from the Father's.
This is an error on the part of man and a means of justifying
disobedience or lawlessness.

The above has nothing to do with my question. My question is, have you
anything to suggest in the foundation of the U.S.A. which is unique to
the Son of God?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-03 15:21:05 UTC

Permalink

Yes, Belief that Y'Shua was the Messiah of Israel spoken of in scripture.
THAT IS foundational, He being the Corner/Head Stone of the foundation.

BTW- Your question was "All of these are Jewish laws. None of them are
commandments specific to
Christ. Do you have any commandments specific to Christ which are part
of the founding of the U.S.A.?"

So I did answer your question. The Torah (Laws) of Y'Shua are the very
same as the Fathers Torah (Laws). All things specific to the Father are
the same to the Son.

Selah laz

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:02:54 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by m***@juno.com

Post by m***@juno.com
The laws (instructions) of Y'Shua are not different from the

Father's.

Post by m***@juno.com
This is an error on the part of man and a means of justifying
disobedience or lawlessness.

Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-03 22:21:06 UTC

Permalink

BTW- Your question was "All of these are Jewish laws. None of them are commandments specific to Christ. Do you have any commandments specific to Christ which are part of the founding of the U.S.A.?"
So I did answer your question. The Torah (Laws) of Y'Shua are the very
same as the Fathers Torah (Laws). All things specific to the Father are
the same to the Son.

So you believe that the Son never gave any new commandments?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-04 10:48:45 UTC

Permalink

In the New Testament it says 'new commandment', but it also says that
this new commandment is not new at all, but has been from the beginning.
Reference John 13:34; 1 John 2:7-8; 2 John 1:5...
What WAS new was the enabling to be obedient and guided by the Holy
Spirit INDWELLING those who were/are His, continually.

Selah
laz

2 John 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new
commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we
love one another.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:21:06 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by m***@juno.com
BTW- Your question was "All of these are Jewish laws. None of them

are commandments specific to Christ. Do you have any commandments
specific to Christ which are part of the founding of the U.S.A.?"

Post by m***@juno.com
So I did answer your question. The Torah (Laws) of Y'Shua are the

very

Post by m***@juno.com
same as the Fathers Torah (Laws). All things specific to the Father

are

Post by m***@juno.com
the same to the Son.

So you believe that the Son never gave any new commandments?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
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Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-05 02:39:23 UTC

Permalink

Post by m***@juno.com
In the New Testament it says 'new commandment', but it also says that
this new commandment is not new at all, but has been from the beginning.
Reference John 13:34; 1 John 2:7-8; 2 John 1:5...
What WAS new was the enabling to be obedient and guided by the Holy
Spirit INDWELLING those who were/are His, continually.
Selah
laz

In the New Testament is written many commandments from the Lord Jesus
Christ to His brothers and sisters which were not available before He
spoke them to us. Do you disagree?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Tom Sathre

2004-11-08 00:57:42 UTC

Permalink

laz,

Sorry to be a one-note Johnny, but what test do you suggest, that's
applicable to people around us - other Americans?

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/1/2004 9:50:35 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Again, I do not quite understand your question enough to answer it. Do
you mean a 'person', an organization, a church or denomination of.
And also depends upon what you mean by religious. Whether 'PURE' religion
spoken of in scriptures, or just religion as seen and interpreted by man
and his ideals?
I CAN answer for myself though. In regards to my voting lets say, I
decide based mostly upon scriptural direction. I suppose the one (what
ever political persuasion) whom reflects scriptural moral backbone the
most gets my vote. Admittedly this is also with regards to spiritual
guidance by the Holy Spirit.
This 'scriptural' I speak of is not of personal interpretation either.
Most things are black and white in scripture.
laz

Post by Tom Sathre
Friends,
Does anyone have a religious test for political office?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/25/2004 1:21:16 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
First of all, 'no interpretation of scripture is

personal'....Kefa/Peter

wrote that.....
Second, if what I wrote made you think I believe the 'church' is

not

carnal you have definitely mis-understood me. Most of the ones who

call

themselves church are carnal just as the world is carnal. There

are FEW

who are not and make up the true body. And even in this, not

saying that

they do not give in to carnality at all..even Paul and the others

did.

Only Y'Shua walked fully.....
The real of the 'church' and state being separate is totally other

than

anything carnal. The opinion given by judges and such of this is

totally

carnal, AND is a total mis-understanding of the Constitution and

the Bill

of Rights....
laz
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:12 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre. The reason I see separation of church and

state

in
laz's opinion here is that it amounts to saying that everything
that's not
"church" is "carnal". This allows no room for disputable

matters,

are
truthful. Some parts of the Bible are plain and some parts are

hard

to
understand. That's a non-testability built right in.)
That's the start of the reason that church and state were
separated.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/23/2004 4:00:56 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Why, Tom, do you say that Laz's opinion cited below is

separation

church and state? I see none of the terms "separation",

"church",

"state" in his statement. I see only the Word of God.

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is separation

church
and

state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a

world-wide
opinion?

Tom.

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political opinion

nothing

less or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal

understanding

and belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
Yahoo! Groups Links

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Tom Sathre

2004-11-08 01:41:02 UTC

Permalink

Jonathan & laz,

You cite a commonly made claim - that this nation was founded on XYZ values
and morals - whatever XYZ may be, you choose. But I would ask you what the
opposite viewpoint is. I've read many citations of words from the Founding
Fathers about why they did what they did. But I know, about myself, that a
quotation from me today might be different from a quotation from me last
year. Didn't the Founding take longer than that?

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/2/2004 4:06:03 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

Post by m***@juno.com
This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and morals.

Jonathan E. Brickman

2004-11-08 23:54:48 UTC

Permalink

Tom, your statement appears nonsensical. For every given XYZ, there is
an opposite!
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
http://joshuacorps.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Tom Sathre

2004-11-08 01:48:41 UTC

Permalink

laz,

The Denver "Post" claimed on 2/27/04 that a replacement for Judge Moore's
hunk made of rock had been placed in the same building, across the room.
The replacement is reported to be on a plastic plaque on the wall, not a
2.5 ton hunt of rock. Altho' I've never seen the building, there's lots to
be said for this removal to be a "cause celebre" of certain Christians and
not much more.

More to the point: what religious test would you propose for someone to
hold public office?

Tom.

Tom Sathre
Address: ***@acm.org
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/1/2004 9:50:30 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and morals. So in
essence the Constitution and other bills and writings were based upon
this foundation. So in this sense a resounding YES.
Over the years the enemy has slipped in and perverted the church vs.
state issue. The very Ten Commandments they are now trying to outlaw in
government buildings and properties is the very building block of all the
laws of this nation from its founding.
Now as for 'US religious and civic organizations', you are correct as
regards secular vs. those who are of the body. But those of the body
indeed NEED to fully be ONE in both areas within the body.
laz

political

position taken by the so called seperation of church and state

from the

governments legalese dept. But more. The two CANNOT be one. Which

is not

even in the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights, BUT maybe is

'hinted at'

in the scriptures? But not in the way it is intepreted by the

government

and fringe groups with political agendas.
laz
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:51:26 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is separation of
church and
state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a

world-wide

opinion?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/19/2004 4:43:06 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political opinion is

nothing less

or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal

understanding

and

belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

Excellent :)
--
Jonathan E. Brickman
We do not and can not buy our freedom
with the deaths of people we love or hate.
http://joshuacorps.org
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

--------------------~-->

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m***@juno.com

2004-11-08 04:44:16 UTC

Permalink

Belief in (Yahweh) the Elohim of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and in Y'Shua
being the Messiah of the Elohim of Israel.

laz

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
The Denver "Post" claimed on 2/27/04 that a replacement for Judge
Moore's
hunk made of rock had been placed in the same building, across the
room.
The replacement is reported to be on a plastic plaque on the wall,
not a
2.5 ton hunt of rock. Altho' I've never seen the building, there's
lots to
be said for this removal to be a "cause celebre" of certain
Christians and
not much more.
More to the point: what religious test would you propose for someone
to
hold public office?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/1/2004 9:50:30 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and morals. So

essence the Constitution and other bills and writings were based

upon

this foundation. So in this sense a resounding YES.
Over the years the enemy has slipped in and perverted the church

vs.

state issue. The very Ten Commandments they are now trying to

outlaw in

government buildings and properties is the very building block of

all the

laws of this nation from its founding.
Now as for 'US religious and civic organizations', you are correct

regards secular vs. those who are of the body. But those of the

body

indeed NEED to fully be ONE in both areas within the body.
laz
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 09:11:59 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
This is Tom Sathre.
Section 6 of the US Constitution forbids setting up of

religious

Post by Tom Sathre
tests for
political office - for example, "You must be a member of XYZ
religious
group to be President." The plain fact is that the members of XYZ
religious
group think that theirs is best. If they thought the group was

wrong

Post by Tom Sathre
about
something important, they wouldn't stay. But I find that members

Post by Tom Sathre
religious groups rarely are schooled in civics. Frequently the
schooling in
"civics" is from the leaders of XYZ.
Perhaps you and I are talking past each other. My guess of what

you

Post by Tom Sathre
mean is
that the US religious and civic organizations cannot be

identical.

Post by Tom Sathre
Is that
what you mean?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/24/2004 4:57:52 AM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
That IS worldwide, and fact.
The seperation is because they are two different systems. One

Post by Tom Sathre

Elohim's, one is the worlds. THIS is not only in regards to

the

Post by Tom Sathre
political

position taken by the so called seperation of church and

state

Post by Tom Sathre
from the

governments legalese dept. But more. The two CANNOT be one.

Which

Post by Tom Sathre
is not

even in the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights, BUT maybe is

'hinted at'

in the scriptures? But not in the way it is intepreted by the

government

and fringe groups with political agendas.
laz
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 15:51:26 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is separation

Post by Tom Sathre

church and
state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a

world-wide

opinion?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/19/2004 4:43:06 PM
Subject: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political opinion

Post by Tom Sathre

nothing less

or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal

understanding

and

belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

Excellent :)
--
Jonathan E. Brickman

m***@juno.com

2004-11-09 21:58:10 UTC

Permalink

Yes. Matter of fact there are MANY XYZ's for many of them.

laz

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:54:48 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by Tom Sathre

Post by Tom Sathre
Jonathan & laz,
You cite a commonly made claim - that this nation was founded on

XYZ values and morals - whatever XYZ may be, you choose. But I would
ask you what the opposite viewpoint is.
Tom, your statement appears nonsensical. For every given XYZ, there
is
an opposite!
--
Jonathan E. Brickman

m***@juno.com

2004-11-09 21:23:41 UTC

Permalink

Well Tom, thats actually unanswerable by me. I cannot suggest other than
what I kow to be true by scripture to anyone, much less unbelievers. I
along will answer before Elohim about my choices and deeds I have
made/done while here where He has created me. Each will do the same one
day.

BUT, I DO encourage everyone in the same direction as I go in this.

shalom
laz

Post by Tom Sathre
laz,
Sorry to be a one-note Johnny, but what test do you suggest, that's
applicable to people around us - other Americans?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/1/2004 9:50:35 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Again, I do not quite understand your question enough to answer

it. Do

you mean a 'person', an organization, a church or denomination of.
And also depends upon what you mean by religious. Whether 'PURE'

religion

spoken of in scriptures, or just religion as seen and interpreted

by man

and his ideals?
I CAN answer for myself though. In regards to my voting lets say,

decide based mostly upon scriptural direction. I suppose the one

(what

ever political persuasion) whom reflects scriptural moral backbone

the

most gets my vote. Admittedly this is also with regards to

spiritual

guidance by the Holy Spirit.
This 'scriptural' I speak of is not of personal interpretation

either.

Most things are black and white in scripture.
laz
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 08:16:57 -0700 "Tom Sathre"

Post by Tom Sathre
Friends,
Does anyone have a religious test for political office?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/25/2004 1:21:16 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
First of all, 'no interpretation of scripture is

personal'....Kefa/Peter

wrote that.....
Second, if what I wrote made you think I believe the 'church'

Post by Tom Sathre
not

carnal you have definitely mis-understood me. Most of the ones

who

Post by Tom Sathre
call

themselves church are carnal just as the world is carnal.

There

Post by Tom Sathre
are FEW

who are not and make up the true body. And even in this, not

saying that

they do not give in to carnality at all..even Paul and the

others

Post by Tom Sathre
did.

Only Y'Shua walked fully.....
The real of the 'church' and state being separate is totally

other

Post by Tom Sathre
than

anything carnal. The opinion given by judges and such of this

Post by Tom Sathre
totally

carnal, AND is a total mis-understanding of the Constitution

and

Post by Tom Sathre
the Bill

of Rights....
laz
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 16:10:12 -0600 "Tom Sathre"

Jonathan,
This is Tom Sathre. The reason I see separation of church

and

Post by Tom Sathre
state

in
laz's opinion here is that it amounts to saying that

everything

Post by Tom Sathre

that's not
"church" is "carnal". This allows no room for disputable

matters,

and this
allows no test to be constructed to decide a matter as far

as it

Post by Tom Sathre

being
"carnal" and "non-carnal". (If you propose a test, I can

always

Post by Tom Sathre

respond
that I read the Bible differently. As you get to know me,

you'll

Post by Tom Sathre

form your
own opinion about the likelihood that responses like this

from

Post by Tom Sathre
me

are
truthful. Some parts of the Bible are plain and some parts

are

Post by Tom Sathre
hard

to
understand. That's a non-testability built right in.)
That's the start of the reason that church and state were
separated.
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 10/23/2004 4:00:56 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war
Why, Tom, do you say that Laz's opinion cited below is

separation

church and state? I see none of the terms "separation",

"church",

"state" in his statement. I see only the Word of God.

laz,
This is Tom Sathre. Your opinion, given below, is

separation

Post by Tom Sathre
of

church
and

state. This makes it an American opinion. Do you have a

world-wide
opinion?

Tom.

I can answer for myself if its ok Jon. Political

opinion

Post by Tom Sathre
is

nothing

less or more than carnal favoritism based upon carnal

understanding

and belief's and desires.
shalom
laz

--
Jonathan E. Brickman

m***@juno.com

2004-11-09 22:01:04 UTC

Permalink

Yes. But the one exception might be on forgiveness and mercy rather than
an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth in the Torah.

shalom
laz

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 20:39:23 -0600 "Jonathan E. Brickman"

Post by m***@juno.com

Post by m***@juno.com
In the New Testament it says 'new commandment', but it also says

that

Post by m***@juno.com
this new commandment is not new at all, but has been from the

beginning.

Post by m***@juno.com
Reference John 13:34; 1 John 2:7-8; 2 John 1:5...
What WAS new was the enabling to be obedient and guided by the

Holy

Post by m***@juno.com
Spirit INDWELLING those who were/are His, continually.
Selah
laz

m***@juno.com

2004-11-09 21:47:33 UTC

Permalink

As Jon said, the XYZ makes this thread hard to follow for me. But I
believe I get the jist of what you are asking. Must be the way my mind
thinks?

Before the 'founding fathers' wrote our constitution or anything else
there were many people who migrated here who believed in Y'Shua as
Messiah and obeyed the Torah of YHWH. They celebrated the appointed times
of YHWH (at least as required without there being a Temple), observed the
true Sabbath, and all this entails.

YEARS skipped here!**************

Later the 'founding fathers' wrote the 'foundational principals' of how
to live and how we would live in this nation as a believing pepole of
God. No matter that they had already either rejected, denied, or just
lost/forgot what the first ones were about. They laid hold of Jesus as
Christ and took their moral standard for the 'new government' from
scriptural instruction. Even though they did not take this all the way,
and mixed it with traditions of man.

We were not founded into a non-believing nation, or one which lived by
the standards of any other country.

Now on a more complicated part of this (complicated because it is only
just now being revealed in the last several years) is just WHO WE ARE.
And the answer to this is we are of the Northern Kingdom of Israel the
Lost Tribes. In fact there is most likely very few real gentiles left
after over 2700 years of assimilation with the nations while we are still
in dispersion among the nations for our punishment!
Understand we are not Judah/Jew, but Israel. And as with Israel some
Jews/of Judah are here with us, just as Judah is only in tribe of Israel
out of 12.
So you see it is geneticaly bound in and to us, no matter those who deny
it.

In essense I suppose you could say that the true foundation of this
nation is from the beginning. For YHWH proclaimed this before the
foundations of the world were laid in and by His Word.

Selah
laz

Post by Tom Sathre
Jonathan & laz,
You cite a commonly made claim - that this nation was founded on XYZ
values
and morals - whatever XYZ may be, you choose. But I would ask you
what the
opposite viewpoint is. I've read many citations of words from the
Founding
Fathers about why they did what they did. But I know, about myself,
that a
quotation from me today might be different from a quotation from me
last
year. Didn't the Founding take longer than that?
Tom.
Tom Sathre
(303)973-8035 (H)
(303)677-0735 (W)

[Original Message]
Date: 11/2/2004 4:06:03 PM
Subject: Re: { Questioners } Re: Recent dead in war

Post by m***@juno.com
This nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and morals.

I know that the U.S.A. was founded upon morals to be found in the

Old

Testament. Thus I do understand the the U.S.A. was founded upon

certain

Jewish morals. But I have never seen any of the commandments of

the

Lord Jesus Christ in law of the U.S.A. Can you name any?
--
Jonathan E. Brickman